Accessibility poll: Best place for image explanations

Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:28:18 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 04 Feb 2024 13:14:41 +0100

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

I have a question regarding descriptions and explanations for images:

Let's suppose I post an image showing something extremely niche and extremely obscure, something that'd require a whole lot of explanation for most people to understand. This also includes memes.

Let's also suppose I don't have a 500-character limit, for I don't have any character limit.

Where would you prefer general explanations?

Behind an external link.
Advantage: Shorter description, albeit still long.
Downsides: The explanation is not where the image is. The many mobile users will need a separate app, namely a Web browser. And the linked webpage might not be accessible.
In the post itself.
Advantage: Everything in one place and guaranteed to be accessible.
Downside: Thousands of characters more in an already very long image description.

All options are listed separately for sighted and non-sighted users.

Please boost for a larger sample size!

Note 1: "In the alt-text" is not an option, by the way. Explanations never go into the alt-text. Besides, without a 500-character limit, I don't have to shove stuff into the alt-text because there's no room in the post.

Note 2: "No description" is not an option either. You shouldn't just leave it to your readers to search the Web for whatever they don't get. Besides, no, you can't Google everything, and ChatGPT doesn't know everything either.

Note 3: Explanations for specific elements in an image that go along with describing what they look like will always go into the image description, i.e. into the post, especially if there is no external webpage explaining them.

#Poll #Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #DescriptiveText #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #Accessibility #A11y #Inclusion #Inclusivity #Blind #VisuallyImpaired

External link - sighted

2 Stimmen | 20%

In the post - sighted

7 Stimmen | 70%

External link - not sighted

0 Stimmen | 0%

In the post - not sighted

1 Stimme | 10%

10 Stimmen insgesamt
Umfrage ist beendet

mehr anzeigen 17 comments

Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:50:34 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 18:51:13 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

I would prefer:

5, Short description within the post AND if it is needed, a longer description elsewhere (which is linked to).

Think of it as a "Read More" link.

And I am sighted... when I have my glasses on.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:02:10 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

After 2 days, this poll has got half as many votes as it has options although I've launched it on a Sunday?

Have so many Mastodon users or instances muted me or blocked me? Or can't Mastodon users wrap their minds around having over 500 characters and/or describing images elsewhere than in alt-text?

Seriously, I've asked all of you for your opinions on something related to accessibility, and I want to see them in this poll. So please boost/"retoot" the start post of this thread once more.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:15:27 +0100

Shabbir Ahmmed

shabbir@infosec.town

@jupiter_rowland
I’m sure people don’t like to read long text in fediverse for some reason

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:51:18 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

Also your post sets out two options then the poll has four.

Does Mastodon only support so short option names that the "- sighted" and "- not sighted" appendices are swallowed?

Each option is there once for sighted users and once for blind or visually-impaired users. I want to be able to distinguish between their opinions.

And people who want the description in the alt text have no way to vote for it. 🤔

That isn't an option, and I've explained in the start post why. Money self-quote:

Note 1: "In the alt-text" is not an option, by the way. Explanations never go into the alt-text. Besides, without a 500-character limit, I don't have to shove stuff into the alt-text because there's no room in the post.

First of all, there must never be any information exclusively available in alt-text. Not everyone can access alt-text. There are physical disabilities that make that impossible. If information is only available in alt-text, it's lost to certain disabled users.

Besides, Mastodon chops off long alt-text that comes in from outside at the 1,500-character mark. And I mean it permanently discards everything that goes beyond 1,500 characters.

This isn't nearly enough for even basic explanations plus visual descriptions in my case. My images are always about an extremely niche topic. Thus, for a casual audience to even be able to understand them, I have to explain a lot, and I have to explain the explanation itself.

1,500 characters aren't nearly enough for that.

My most recent meme post includes an explanation that's 2,635 characters long. This is not a typo.

I have to explain what Padmé is so sceptical about.
In order to make that understandable, I have to explain in altogether 501 characters what OSgrid is.
Then I have to explain in 572 characters what OpenSimulator is in order for people to understand what OSgrid is.
Then I have to explain in 545 characters what Second Life is in order for people to understand what OpenSimulator is.
Then I have to explain in over 200 characters that and why worlds in OpenSim are called "grids" in order for people to further understand what OSgrid is.
Then I have to explain in 487 characters what it is about OSgrid that has Padmé worried.

Without these explanations, nobody but OpenSim veterans would even get the meme. And I didn't even explain the meme template; if I were to do that as well, I'd go well beyond 6,000 characters only for explanations because I'd have to go as in-depth as KnowYourMeme.

Only for explanations. This does not include visual descriptions. And if you've ever actually read any of my over-500-characters-long posts, you should know that my visual descriptions of my own pictures give "excessive" a new meaning. And they come with increasingly extensive general explanations plus detail explanations themselves.

You tell me how to get thousands upon thousands of characters in alt-text into Mastodon in one piece, undamaged.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #AltText #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 11:53:34 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

tl;dr:

@Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)

Also your post sets out two options then the poll has four.

Each option for sighted and for non-sighted users.

And people who want the description in the alt text have no way to vote for it. 🤔

Not an option. Explanations never go in alt-text. And Mastodon has a hard limit of 1,500 characters in alt-text and chops longer alt-texts off while my own image descriptions may have 5,000+ characters of explanations (necessary due to the niche topic) + 30,000+ characters of visual descriptions.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:07:59 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) The posts themselves largely show up correctly and completely.

The only issue is that Tusky is too hard-coded against Mastodon and Mastodon only without taking into consideration that things can be different on other projects. Hence, it turns all my hashtags into links to hashtag searches on my home hub. Mastodon's Web UI correctly turns them into local hashtag searches.

If I knew which mobile apps botch this, and quite a few do, I'd go around to all their git repositories and submit issues.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:11:05 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) Friendica has a nice trick that goes a bit into this direction.

If you give a post a title, the ActivityPub add-on sends it as an Article object, and Mastodon either links to the original or folds it in altogether, I don't quite remember.

If you don't give it a title, it's sent as a Note object, the same as a Mastodon toot, and it's largely displayed the same as a Mastodon toot.

Caveat: You can't put titles on comments, i.e. replies to anything.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:28 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Jupiter Rowland Hubzilla can do long-form blog-style posts both as regular posts which go out as toot-like Note objects and with an optional "app" as articles which, however, don't federate.

I could try to suggest a new feature, namely subscribing to articles via RSS or Atom, including subscribing to certain article categories. Unfortunately, that still wouldn't allow interaction with readers in the Fediverse.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:18:21 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Tokyo Outsider (337ppm) Hubzilla can do long-form blog-style posts both as regular posts which go out as toot-like Note objects and with an optional "app" as articles which, however, don't federate, not beyond being mirrored to my own nomadic clone.

I could try to suggest a new feature, namely subscribing to articles via RSS or Atom, including subscribing to certain article categories. Unfortunately, that still wouldn't allow interaction with readers in the Fediverse.

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 19:20:12 +0100

Klaus Baldermann 📜

soonix@ieji.de

@jupiter_rowland Regarding the original question, I see two more options.

My first thought was an external link, but for both the image and the description, like a gallery, or media library. Advantage: the image is where the description is. Referring to the same image later would need no additional resources.

But then: isn't that what EXIF and/or IPTC IIM is for? See https://www.iptc.org/std/photometadata/documentation/userguide/#_general_image_content
The text would be "in" the image, and would not count against any text size limits...

Tue, 30 Jan 2024 20:13:28 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

@Klaus Baldermann 📜

But then: isn't that what EXIF and/or IPTC IIM is for? S

I don't think my fediverse reader even shows EXIF or IPTC IIM information.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:03:44 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@Scott M. Stolz @Klaus Baldermann 📜

But then: isn't that what EXIF and/or IPTC IIM is for? S

I don't think my fediverse reader even shows EXIF or IPTC IIM information.

Exactly that. It doesn't. And I've got my doubts that Mastodon does.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 08:07:55 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

I don't think my fediverse reader even shows EXIF or IPTC IIM information.

Geo location is part of the Exif header and can be read by HZ

/settings/photos/

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:29:24 +0100

Klaus Baldermann 📜

soonix@ieji.de

@jupiter_rowland @scott 😢 valid concerns. Even Pixelfed isn't a big friend of it, at least the relevant discussion seems to have died (although marked as "open") - https://github.com/pixelfed/ideas/issues/3

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:46:07 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 17:46:34 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@biztechtonics.net

I don't think adding meta data directly to the picture would be an option. I know that you can add meta data to a picture, but I have never done so, and don't even know how. And looking on my phone, I don't even see an option to add any of that data.

Wed, 31 Jan 2024 18:11:13 +0100

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

And looking on my phone, I don't even see an option to add any of that data.

have a look here:
https://search.f-droid.org/?q=Exif&lang=en

Sun, 04 Feb 2024 12:12:59 +0100

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Seven hours to go for this poll.

It got one vote more than it has options so far, but if these few votes are representative, then the whole Fediverse prefers images being described in 50,000+-character monster posts behind "long post" content warnings over images being described externally behind a link.

#Poll #AltText #DescriptiveText #ImageDescription #ImageDescriptions #ImageDescriptionMeta #CWImageDescriptionMeta #Accessibility #A11y #Inclusion #Inclusivity #Blind #VisuallyImpaired