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How does Hubzilla relates to Streams ?

Tue, 05 Sep 2023 15:45:20 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:38:02 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

#Hubzilla https://hubzilla.org and #Streams https://codeberg.org/streams/streams share the same code root but are two separate #Fediverse projects started by @Mike Macgirvin, who started 2010 also Friendica.
Mike nowadays just develops for Streams.

Both projects can handel user groups, have a fine adjustable system for privacy, access control, and content ownership, offer as many channels as you like to have under one account and offer the unique function for a "nomadic identity".

The DEV Team which keeps developing Hubzilla likes to consider Streams as important as "Sid" ( https://www.debian.org/releases/sid/) for debian.

Besides other improvements the Hubzilla Dev team is porting time by time the mayor developments made in Streams (as possible) to Hubzilla and is keeping HZ up to date with AP and working with other networks like #Diaspora and more

Streams uses the ZOT12 / NOMAD protocol and is at the same time 100% #ActivityPub

Hubzilla uses the ZOT6 protocol + other Network protocols by addons + all kinds of functions like a Web CMS can have: #Blogs, #Webpages, #WIKIS, #CalDAV, #CardDAV and so on

Streams is focused "just" on federated content and is pushing new functions around that also into AP. So Mike is with Streams actually involved in the ongoing development of ActivityPub and truly the avant-garde here. Because Streams is focused on "fewer" functions - Streams may be more easy to get started with the Fediverse - Streams just offers the right tools here for you.

Hubzilla has also functions for "old school" Web publishing, for content which does NOT federate and offers also all the tools for the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/ . So for communities and persons which/how like to have all kinds of Web publishing functions and which/who are not just interested and dependent on having communication with the AP Network - Hubzille is THE ultimate choice.

Please check out for your self.

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Tue, 05 Sep 2023 23:30:35 +0200

Mike Macgirvin

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

> "Streams is focused "just" on federated content and is pushing new functions around that also into AP. "

In fact the primary focus has always been usability and interface consistency. Nobody really cares about protocols or building websites or even decentralisation. They want something simple that works.

I'm not saying I have achieved these goals. Only that these goals are my primary focus and represent a huge difference from the complexity that has always been a hindrance to more widespread adoption of Hubzilla. It isn't about fewer functions, but functions that work well together.

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 08:46:18 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:28:52 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

In my view the hindrance to more widespread adoption of HZ and also Streams is the concept of privacy, access control, and content ownership which people are not used to and do not understand.

e.g. the new permission in streams needed to search through content - people just don't care - they are used to networks where they can finde just everything. So @Mike Macgirvin your projects are fare ahead of time and it will take some more years that more people start to understand and start to care

Also

The last success of a app like Firefish can be also explained because of UX/UI AND BRANDING... since HZ and streams have a different philosophy and is lacking of a webdesign which people already know form other apps things move more slow and the projects have fewer adopter

just my view

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:02:31 +0200

Mike Macgirvin

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

Admittedly my software tends to be for people who not only expect but demand privacy and demand better solutions to online safety than just playing whack-a-mole with spammers and harassers. On this I will not compromise. If that makes my work unpopular, so be it.

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:07:33 +0200

_jayrope

_jayrope

jrp@hub.kliklak.net

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Agree very much on UI/UX issues.

That's the main factor driving people away.

I don't think privacy control drives people away. Many might be uninterested there, yes. For me it is the main point of use of HZ.

@Mike Macgirvin

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 10:09:04 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@Mike Macgirvin

Admittedly my software tends to be for people who not only expect but demand privacy and demand better solutions to online safety than just playing whack-a-mole with spammers and harassers. On this I will not compromise. If that makes my work unpopular, so be it.

I also think it is a matter of audience and purpose. Or, put another way, one tool is better suited than others for a particular purpose.

If you want a private community or you want to share things with friends privately, then Streams would probably be the better choice. If you want a public channel or public forums that are visible to the world, then Streams is overkill, because it has privacy features and added privacy complexity you don't need.

From my perspective, as someone who is building on top of this technology, there would be specific use cases for Hubzilla and specific use cases for Streams.

For example, if I am launching a community with public discussion boards and public social media channels, I would pick Hubzilla instead of Streams. But if I am building an app where information is private by default, such as a personal information manager or a communications suite or an exclusive membership website, then Streams would probably be better since it has more privacy baked in.

So it isn't that one is better than the other; it is which tool is more appropriate for a particular job.

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 18:44:57 +0200

Bill Statler

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

I don't think I agree that UI/UX is driving people away from Hubzilla/(streams). Yes, it could be improved.

But have you experienced Facebook recently? It's horrible. For everyday use, I find (streams) to be much easier and more enjoyable. And yet Facebook drives away only a small fraction of its users. Well, we know how they manage that trick: by being huge.

Do we have any reports from people who tried Hubzilla or (streams), and then left? Where did they go? What did they not like?

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 20:56:57 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:43:20 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Bill Statler never been on FB... but form what people are telling me - UI/UX is an issue indeed on Zot / Nomad software... actually that fact is know for a long time...

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 21:05:30 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 08:31:59 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

Do we have any reports from people who tried Hubzilla or (streams), and then left? Where did they go? What did they not like?

a lot of reports - yes - even if there are not written down... i have contact to quid a few newbees and they leave becasue they don't see a need for the privacy concept, they don't even get it... and they don't like the surface ... some also don't like the community - to dogmatic, they say...

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 21:08:55 +0200

Hans

Hans

hans@hubzilla.hopto.org

That is what I hear from people using Mastodon too. They get excited if they hear what Hubzilla can do, look at it and feel lost.

To be honest, a good layout might help but it might still scare them away when looking at all the options. I doubt I would do a better job so I am ok with them leaving this.

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 22:14:47 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

We'll have some new options for themes soon.

Wed, 06 Sep 2023 23:25:00 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Well, first they had a problem with #Mastodon not having the exact same UX as X. Then they had one with #Hubzilla not having the exact same UX as Mastodon.

Also, sure, today's #Fediverse is nothing like the old #FederatedSocialWeb.

10 years ago, the Federated Social Web was for geeks plus left-wing activists. #Friendica was the centre of the world. We didn't know whether we should pity or laugh at #Diaspora. And everyone was on desktop #Linux, and #Apple was evil incarnate.

Today, the Fediverse is for just about everyone. Mastodon is not only the centre of the world to the point that many spend up to half a year believing it is the Fediverse proper. People are pining for #Bluesky invites. And everyone's on an #iPhone and gushing over the #VisionPro.

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:01:33 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 10:31:53 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland Thanks

So you are saying all the talk and efforts about UX/UI brings us not closer to the essential points and is actually distracting us...

UX/UI is a wrap up for raw functions - a surface - It can enable us to do things more easy - it can also nudge us to certain actions and also hide things way.

If UX/UI is keeping you from understanding and trying to do things by your self i would say there is something really wrong with the used UX/UI

I like Hubzilla so much because it actually enables us to do so many things...and we can also easy brake up the surface and tweak things... well not everybody can do this but the tools to try are implemented - and that is essential

Open Source project will never have the resources like the IT Industry has to invest in a really good UX/UI

In a world where iPhone are still an object of desire a project like streams can't be expected to find the crowd - but more free Web activists should us it instead of Masto.

just did some studies about the term #FederatedSocialWeb and will post it in a new thread

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 10:44:20 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

So you are saying all the talk and efforts about UX/UI brings us not closer to the essential points and is actually distracting us...

No, I'm saying that people come from #Mastodon straight to #Hubzilla in expectation of "Mastodon with #RichText and a 50,000-character limit". Just like they came from Twitter to Mastodon because they were promised "literally Twitter without Elon Musk".

Then they land flat on their faces. Hubzilla turns out to be nothing like Mastodon. It handles vastly differently. Nothing is where they'd expect it. No content warnings (because Hubzilla calls them summaries). No UI element for alt-text. It doesn't have an app. Mastodon apps don't work. And so forth. Hell, 95% of them even fail to connect to other Mastodon users because nobody tells them that they have to turn #Pubcrawl on first!

Verdict: Hubzilla sucks. And they're back to their cosy little Mastodon which was hard enough to get used to already. No ambitions to learn something wholly new yet again.

I still remember when #Friendica mimicked the UIs of Facebook and #Diaspora*. Maybe Hubzilla needs to adopt this again with UIs that mimic Facebook, Twitter, Bluesky, Threads and the most popular Mastodon Web interfaces. Not only in looks, but even in handling as far as that's possible.

just did some studies about the term #FederatedSocialWeb and will post it in a new thread

The #FederatedSocialWeb was:

Diaspora* for the clueless hipsters who had never heard of Friendica, and who were absolutely convinced that those four guys were the first to develop a decentralised social network
Friendica for the geeks, the cool kids and alternative left-wing activists who had to use something obscure so that the authorities wouldn't discover their posts too easily
the #RedMatrix for those few daredevils who a) knew about it, b) were willing to try it and c) actually had access to a Red Matrix instance

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 11:11:00 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland

and what role did play Status.net in your #FederatedSocialWeb ?

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 11:17:12 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland you can't expect much form the crowd - but what do you think keeps the "free Web activists" on Masto?

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 12:27:30 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 It existed. That's it, basically.

You know how #Mastodon feels like it's only #MastodonSocial now? Well, back in the day, #StatusNet was #IdentiCa. That one instance felt bigger than all the others combined, also because there wasn't today's plethora of instance-listing websites yet.

Identi.ca was basically synonymous with StatusNet. There were desktop apps and mobile apps that supported Twitter and identi.ca. Not Twitter and StatusNet. Twitter and identi.ca. The OStatus support side was hard-coded for only this one instance because the devs believed that identi.ca was a monolithic walled garden just like Twitter. That was all they knew. And nobody told them otherwise because nobody else knew either.

Even if someone had told them, they probably didn't bother. It wasn't worth making the app more "complicated" by adding an instance field if only a teensy-tiny number of users would have had any use for it. Identi.ca itself was big enough.

Still, even though both Friendica and the Red Matrix had #OStatus connectors that weren't hard-wired to only identi.ca, hardly anyone had any StatusNet connections. So StatusNet wasn't really part of the #FederatedSocialWeb in practice.

Truth be told, I think most StatusNet instances felt like walled gardens anyway, even those that weren't identi.ca. They were mostly built for specific communities. People often weren't told told that they could connect to users on other instances, or if they were told, they weren't interested. And if there were inter-instance connections, one end was usually identi.ca.

In July 2013, it was all over anyway. Identi.ca switched to #PumpIO which neither Friendica nor the Red Matrix had a connector for. It became a walled garden. And without identi.ca, the rest of StatusNet mattered even less.

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 12:30:00 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Either they've only just arrived. It'll take them two months to learn that the #Fediverse isn't only #MastodonSocial and five months to learn that #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse.

Or it was hard enough already to do the switch from Twitter to #Mastodon and learn all the differences. Learning "yet another app" would be too tedious.

Or it's too difficult, if not out-right impossible, to move to another project and take all your followers with you.

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 13:46:11 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland Ok there may be some fanboys who like to stick to what they just learned... but his does not explain the phenomenon for me why so many free Web/internet/IT activist stay on #Masto.

Well, there are few on #Friendica - but very very few on #Hubzilla or #streams.

Again.. not talking about the crowd here but about activist groups like #eff #fsfe #digitalcourage and individuals who fighting for freedom in the digital world. There must be an other reason. I assume they are all some how cough up in patterns which keeps same from moving... patterns you believe in can be quid strong... if you believe social media is by definition a public thing than you will like the app which gives you the most follower and spreads your word as fare as possible.

__

Thanks for your inside view on #StatusNet. I will do some more research. From that what i know so fare Evan Prodromou was very well involved in this #FederatedSocialWeb movement. According to this source #StatusNet and #Ostaus was subject for sure. Will try to dig deeper

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:20 +0200

Alexander Goeres

Alexander Goeres

jabgoe2089@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 i think one reason why hubzilla has such a low acceptance is the lack of mobile apps for this. i myself mostly use hubzilla via pc, only very infrequently from my phone. for these rare occasions the mobile view of hubzilla is sufficient for me. but most of the twits and mastodons see socmed as an app for mobile phones. and so a socmed without an app doesn't exist.

Thu, 07 Sep 2023 17:26:05 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Alexander Goeres yes- you maybe right... I'm not missing a mobile app at all so... the /hq page works for me perfect also on my mobile phone

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:55:00 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 08:53:20 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

That was all they knew. And nobody told them otherwise because nobody else knew either.

(...)

So StatusNet wasn't really part of the #FederatedSocialWeb in practice.

According to my sources the story goes a bit different here - sorry for that @Jupiter Rowland

The "Federated Social Web" was an term founded and an initiative started by Evan Prodromou, the head and CEO behind #StatusNet #Ostaus and #IdentiCa. In July 2010 he tried to get together all active groups developing code specific to federation of the web. This happen to be just around the days as @Mike Macgirvin came around the corner with #DFRN. He got even invited to this "Federated Social Web" summit but i guess the way form Australia to Portland Oregon was a bit to long, for this short-term invitation.

There where some more "Federated Social Web" meetings and one result form Evans initiative was also the "W3C Federated Social Web Incubator Group" started on 15 December 2010 and transitioned on 12 January 2012 to the "W3C Federated Social Web Community Group". This group did all the basic work for the Activitypub definitions published 2018 https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/

It appears that in all this meetings Mikes projects were never present. In all this "Federated Social Web" summits and follower up meeting all kinds of protocols, networks, platforms were discussed - but i read never about #Mistpark, #Friendica, #Hubzilla, #DFRN or #ZOT . But Evan and the others DEVs know about Mikes work for sure. For very sure - but they were following their own projects and ideas.

The OStatus support side was hard-coded for only this one instance because the devs believed that identi.ca was a monolithic walled garden just like Twitter.

Evan had always also some kind of businesses modes in mind and he got in August 2010 even $2.3 million. Dollars of Venture capital for the platform #status.net So the whole setting for this #FederatedSocialWeb initiative has to be seen also in this light.

And.... Guess who the chairman of the W3C Social Web Working Community Group was - Evan.

Now ... also the Free Software Foundation (FSF) was also just focused on OStatus and StatusNet. By 2009 a decision of the GNU social steering committee was made to built on top of the OStatus protocol and the StatusNet codebase a project called "GNU social". It's main goal was to deployable with a minimal hosting configuration. So GNU social got on the way and was finally around 2012/13 the successor of Laconica/StatusNet software.

Now we can understand a bit better that DFRN/ZOT/NOMAD projects were never considered later e.g. by the FSF. Today they use of coure Masto, the successor of GNU social.

Somehow the line of projects started with Mistpark got ignored by powerful institutions because advocates and proponent were missing here.

In two weeks from today here in Cologne we will have a summit about the chances of free social networks, also organized by the Free Software Foundation Europe

https://fsfe.org/news/2023/news-20230712-01.en.html

One of the speaks will be @Tobias. He has been a follower of Mikes projects since the very early days in 2011 and still is running a Friendica community hub and is working for the FSFE also as system administrator. He should know also a bit about #Hubzilla and #Streams and we can hope for sure that the word about Mike projects will be finally start to be spread :-)

I will report.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:03:14 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

I think that I see a little confusion, one thing is/was federated social web and another is/was "the federation".. Then people mix a little all the thing and in the last years call the thing "fediverse".

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:54:26 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:05:27 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Giac El Vecio Your are around with mike projects since the early years also... you can tell us a lot about that, i would like to hear your visions.

BUT for sure

Diaspora Devs were also part of the "federated social web" initiative by Evan... we are talking here about the very first start of things beyond indenti.ca. That was before the Diaspora Network was called "The Federation" and even before Diaspora was online for regular use.

Evan reported in July 2010:

I was pleasantly surprised when Ilya from Diaspora offered to demo cross-site subscription between Diaspora and StatusNet using OStatus. It was impressive!

Well things did run different later... but that seamed a true option at that time.

The meaning, use and understanding of terms can shift over time that way too

and also what we call today "The Fedivese" is something different than 10 Years ago...

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:09:00 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

I remember at the time some people were making "federation" drawings, where they put everything they could into, including gnusocial-status.net
and I also remember that things got mixed up several times, how can I say that some people, let's say important people, loved to give/invent their own terms, and include that and exclude the other, therefore, I would say that it is difficult to give a "definition", as define who was right and who was not etc...

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:17:47 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

I think that I see a little confusion, one thing is/was federated social web and another is/was "the federation".. Then people mix a little all the thing and in the last years call the thing "fediverse".

And we just started using "fediverse-enabled" to indicate that a website, platform, server, or app can use a federated social identity in some way, such as sign on (remote authentication) or communication (Zot6 and/or ActivityPub users can post on local forums and send/receive DMs to local users). For example, a website that is primarily forums could be fediverse-enabled. An email app could be fediverse-enabled if you can also manage your DMs and social posts there in addition to email.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:23:29 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

Anyway I think the trekker Tobias can give you a lot of details, documents and maybe some of those old drawings and graphs.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:49:29 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:57:22 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

those old drawings and graphs

even did a ZOT/Nomad update of his graph some time ago

Bild/Foto

and have other in the archive:
FEDI-graf

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:00:53 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 It should be noted that Zot6 and Nomad are actually different protocols. Streams supports both Zot6 and Nomad, which is why it can talk to Hubzilla.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:04:44 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

It should be noted that Zot6 and Nomad are actually different protocols.

you better ask @Mario Vavti what he things about that..

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:10:35 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:14:15 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 I asked @Mike Macgirvin about it. He was the one who said they are different protocols.

Or put another way, Zot6 is version 6 of the Zot protocol, and Nomad is equivalent to Zot12. They can't talk to one another since there are enough changes that break compatibility.

I was told that Streams uses Nomad (Zot12) to talk to other Streams servers, and uses Zot6 to talk to Hubzilla.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:36:43 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

3 different protocols, but I don't see any (visible) options for now, no button to turn off zot and be alone with nomad.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:37:59 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

Streams uses Nomad (Zot12) to talk to other Streams servers, and uses Zot6 to talk to Hubzilla.

thanks - good to know

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:53:02 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 20:54:57 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

3 different protocols, but I don't see any (visible) options for now, no button to turn off zot and be alone with nomad.

There are two ways to look at it. One is that they are different protocols (Nomad vs. Zot6), and the other is that they are different versions of the same protocol (Zot12 vs. Zot6). Or put another way, Nomad is either an upgraded version of Zot, or it is a fork of Zot. Either way, both of them are fruit of the same tree, so they share some of the same codebase, although that may change as more and more things diverge.

Plus, the Hubzilla and Streams communities are so intertwined at this point that it does not make sense to turn on and off Zot6, since you would lose half of your currently small combined community.

Fri, 08 Sep 2023 21:08:46 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

3 different protocols, but I don't see any (visible) options for now, no button to turn off zot and be alone with nomad.

I forgot to mention, if Streams turned off Zot6, then it would communicate with Hubzilla via ActivityPub, in which case you would lose functionality.

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 11:19:46 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz @Giac El Vecio just edited the top level post regarding ZOT6 and ZOT12 / Nomad

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 11:39:48 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

"Streams is focused "just" on federated content and is pushing new functions around that also into AP. "

looking at

https://codeberg.org/streams/streams-addons

We see the addons "faces" and "flashcards" by @Einer von Vielen . Do falshcards federate with other AP apps ?

@Mike Macgirvin could be addons like HZ webpages or HZ articles also be integrated as a streams addon? Would that follow the concept of streams? Would you accept that?

So the actual question may be: Can be Streams also considered as a CMS ?

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 16:43:26 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

In theory you can fork streams, add these things, call it streams plus, making a clone or almost of hz, if that makes sense.

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 16:49:08 +0200

Giac El Vecio

Giac El Vecio

giacelvecio@unio.diversispiritus.net.br

On firefish there are things, features, that are not federated, when they arrive on mastodon or hubzilla they appear as plain text or not arrive.

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 20:46:55 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

#Hubzilla has flash cards, too. But they aren't sent to connections AFAIK. That wouldn't make much sense. Hence they don't federate.

And I don't know any #Fediverse project based on #ActivityPub that supports flash cards. It wouldn't make much sense to send them to, what, #Mastodon. Just like it wouldn't make much sense to allow a Mastodon user to edit your wikis if no Mastodon Web interface and no Mastodon app has a wiki editing UI.

But #Streams, as it is, isn't a CMS. (streams) doesn't have webpages, it doesn't have articles, it doesn't have wikis either. It might be possible to port that stuff from Hubzilla to (streams), but even then, it'd have to be converted from Zot6 to Zot12. Remember that you can give connections permission to edit your webpages and wikis.

Sat, 09 Sep 2023 22:01:23 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

The nice thing about Streams is that if you were to build upon it, there are less things that would conflict with whatever you are building. So Streams is great if you want to "pure" fediverse app without the fluff... but it also is great if you want to build an app on top of it, especially since you can rebrand it.

If you want a server that already has a CMS, articles, cloud storage, and more, then Hubzilla would be better.

Sun, 10 Sep 2023 07:38:26 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 08:22:33 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland

like it wouldn't make much sense to allow a Mastodon user to edit your wikis if no Mastodon Web interface and no Mastodon app has a wiki editing UI

it would make sense if masto would support owa. why not?

https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/25012

Sun, 10 Sep 2023 08:31:42 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 But not in this particular case.

There is no editor for Hubzilla wikis anywhere on the default Mastodon Web UI.

There is no editor for Hubzilla wikis anywhere in the official Mastodon iOS or Android app.

There is no editor for Hubzilla wikis anywhere in any other Mastodon app or on any alternative Mastodon Web UI.

Mastodon users can't edit Hubzilla wikis, not because they can't be given the permissions, but because they don't have the tools.

Same for webpages. What should a Mastodon user possibly edit a Hubzilla webpage with? The same text box that they write their toots with?

Or CalDAV calendars. Even if you could give a Mastodon user permission to edit one of your CalDAV calendars, they won't be able to do that because Mastodon itself doesn't have a calendar at all. I mean, Mastodon probably doesn't even show events from public Hubzilla calendars on its timelines because it doesn't understand events.

Sun, 10 Sep 2023 09:01:41 +0200 zuletzt bearbeitet: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 09:03:53 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland ok i understand what you mean. but for editing a hz wiki a masto user just needs a link to the hz wiki and owa.

creating an own wiki is a different story.

Wed, 20 Sep 2023 08:09:58 +0200

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Jupiter Rowland

But #Streams, as it is, isn't a CMS. (streams) doesn't have webpages, it doesn't have articles, it doesn't have wikis either. It might be possible to port that stuff from Hubzilla to (streams), but even then, it'd have to be converted from Zot6 to Zot12. Remember that you can give connections permission to edit your webpages and wikis.

@Mike Macgirvin are the permissions for editing Webpages, Wikis and Articles still part of ZOT12?

Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:14:57 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 18:16:12 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

I thought you used OpenWebAuth to remotely authenticate on the Hubzilla server where the content is located, and you can edit wikis, articles, and pages that way (if you have permission). That does not use Zot or Nomad.

You can edit them remotely too?

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 08:16:28 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 22:12:57 +0100

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

You can edit them remotely too?

Webpages, Wikis and Articles can't never be edited remotely

OpenWebAuth gives your ID access to a server. A nomad contact does than the editing on a HZ Server where Webpages, Wikis and Articles and appropriate permissions are available.

are the permissions for editing Webpages, Wikis and Articles still part of ZOT12?

with my limited understanding i would say now that this all has nothing to do with the used protocol.

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 15:59:24 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

Since that is the case, someone could create addons for Streams that does these things, but it would never be included in the core, since Mike wants to keep Streams lean and focused on the fediverse networking aspect.

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 21:58:29 +0100

Mike Macgirvin 🖥️

Mike Macgirvin 🖥️

mikedev@fediversity.site

How does Hubzilla relate to Streams?

Streams is an offspring of Hubzilla and a new generation. They share some genetic code. Nothing more. They are completely different individuals with completely different personalities and motivations.

Do you have kids?

Please don't tell me that Streams has to be just like its dad. I'll bloody gag.

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 22:14:38 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

Both Streams and the Nomad protocol have evolved enough to be different animals at this point. So, like Mike said, they should be treated as being independent from and different than Hubzilla and the Zot protocol.

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 22:25:33 +0100

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

still don't really understand which part the protocol and which part implementation status plays here.

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 23:03:24 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 23:05:09 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

Here is my understanding:

Streams uses the Nomad protocol to talk to Streams.

Streams uses the Zot Protocol to talk to Hubzilla.

Streams uses ActivityPub to talk to everyone else.

Hubzilla uses Zot to talk to Hubzilla

Hubzilla uses Zot to talk to Streams

Hubzilla uses ActivityPub (if enabled) to talk to ActivityPub-enabled sites.

Hubzilla also has other protocols (if enabled) that can talk to other projects.

Both projects use OpenWebAuth, and can remotely authenticate on each other's website. This allows commenting directly on the website, as well as edit wikis, articles, webpages, and anything else allowed by the admin or channel owner.

Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:07:08 +0100 zuletzt bearbeitet: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:07:25 +0100

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

This allows commenting directly on the website, as well as edit wikis, articles, webpages, and anything else allowed by the admin or channel owner.

no way that a admin can allow this... fortunately

Sat, 18 Nov 2023 06:46:47 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

now way that a admin can allow this... fortunately

The admin can determine whether you have a wiki or not. So they have the ultimate say on whether anyone on the server can post or edit a wiki. But if you mean that the users set the permissions, then yes.

But, remember, the admin has access to the database. Just because they can't do something via the interface doesn't mean they can't do it via the database.